Tom Brady is the Most Overrated Quarterback In NFL History
Facts don’t care about your feelings. And neither do I.
Ben Shapiro
A Legacy – Deflated!
This isn’t about whether Tom Brady is a cheater who got what he deserved; I’ll let others beat that horse. No, this is about something else. As I look at the NFL standings today and see the Patriots at 3-1 and atop the AFC East (again) I can’t help but smirk, one of those annoying smirks that I hate in others. With their 2nd and 3rd sting at QB, New England still looked like one of the best teams in the NFL. This is why I wanted Brady out for four games, far more than whether I thought he was guilty or whether Square Jaw overreached as commissioner. I wanted more proof of how extremely overrated Brady is.
There is no ‘i’ in team. But there are two in “They’d still win”.
It worked out about as well as I could have hoped. I really thought they’d go 4-0. I’ll take 3-1. Playing the Patrtiots without Brady doesn’t give opponents a huge advantage. No matter what Bills coach, Biff from Back to the Future, says. If everyone thought they could take down the Brady-less PATs, three teams were wrong, including an otherwise 3-0 team that got to face NE’s 3rd string guy making his first ever start and lost by four touchdowns. Tom Brady has won 77% of his starts in his NFL career. In 20 games, his back ups–all starting their first NFL games of their careers–have won 70% (14-6).
This is historically true as well. Steve Young was awful in Tampa Bay to start his career: 3-16 record, 11 TDs vs. 21 ints. Then he goes to SF and violà! 10 TDs vs. 0 Ints his first season and goes on to become a Super Bowl winner and Hall of Famer. In 1976, 4-time Super Bowl champ Terry Bradshaw missed 6 games with injury and his back up went 6-0 without throwing a TD pass in any game. Even my man Manning rode the back of a now winning franchise to win his 2nd SB ring. Siemian and Oswieler have won games in Denver. Paxton looks good too.
Team matters. Franchise matters. After the Pats started 3-0, Scott Van Pelt profoundly stated that it didn’t seem to matter who NE started at QB, that they’d still win. And it’s time to break the myths that QBs are the key to winning. The facts on Tom Brady’s career shatter them. Let’s look at them one at a time:
Myth 1: He wins more, with less.
Perhaps you have seen the meme where it shows how many future HOFers Brady has had as his weapons vs. how many Manning had. Manning had more so obviously, Brady has been rubbing two sticks together to win 4 SB’s while Manning and his zippo could only get 2.
Interestingly, Brady won more SB’s throwing to Givens, Branch and Troy Brown than he has throwing to Gronk, Moss and Welker. Why is that? Could it be that having HOF weapons on offense isn’t all it takes to win a Super Bowl? Brady 01-04 won more with less than Brady 05-14. Maybe this means “He” hasn’t won anything.
Myth #2: Players hit the QB lottery playing with him.
Players hit the lottery playing with New England, not with Brady. If you look at the stats of many of Brady’s weapons over the years who have played with other QBs and other franchises, you will see that they don’t have better stats with Brady. Deion Branch averaged 3.7 catches and 48 yards per game in NE and 3.7 and 46 in Seattle. Randy Moss was about the same stat wise with Brady as with Duante Culpepper, Jeff George and Randall Cunningham throwing to him in Minnesota. And if you think those short white receivers for NE owe Brady for making them look good, by all means go look at how Danny Woodhead has done in San Diego vs. how he did in New England. Skip Bayless once gushed about Brady that he took an unknown Wes Welker from the Dolphins and made him a 112 catch wonder in NE in 2007. “Who else could do that?” he asks. The very next year Welker had 111 catches with Cassel throwing to him.
Myth #3: Brady has nearly won Super Bowls in spite of his team.
Who could forget that huge Super Bowl drop by Wes Welker 5 years ago? Forgetting the pass was not good (Boston homer Bill Simmons, who sat at the 40 yard line at the game, described it with a word I cannot repeat here), people tend to overlook what my brother Ashley texted me after the game: Brady was throwing to a guy who was wide open.
People also said, “He dragged the 31st rank defense in the league to the Super Bowl that year!” That’s their yardage rank. They were 15th in scoring defense that year and gave up 20, 10 and 19 in the playoffs. Brady also had a 4th quarter interception in the Super Bowl and gave the Giants two points on a intentional grounding safety.
Myth #4: Brady made Belichik and was the key to New England turning around from 5-11 in 2000 to winning 3 of 4 Super Bowls.
It is a mistake to assume that I think Brady owes everything to Belichik who, indeed, couldn’t win a thing in Cleveland or his first year in NE. He doesn’t. No coach has ever won with two teams and nobody has won in Cleveland in 50 years.
But neither do I think Brady was the key to the turnaround. There were a lot of things that happened in 2001 that helped the Patriots turn from 5-11 to SB winners. Hiring Romeo Crannel was one. The Pats jumped from 17th in defensive scoring in 2000 to 6th in 2001. If you want to credit Brady for their amazing turnaround, you’ll have to explain to me why the Patriots won the Super Bowl in 01, 03 and 04 with the 6th, 1st and 2nd scoring defenses and didn’t make the playoffs in 2002 with the 17th scoring defense. Or why Brady was a much better QB statistically from 05 to 13 when he won zero Super Bowls than he was from 01 to 04 when he won three. People like to talk about these mythical “intangibles” QBs have but am I to assume Brady lost his intangible in 2005 and could not recover it for nine seasons?
The truth is Brady was just a good QB in 2001, not a great one. It’s the least impressive year of his career, easily. In the AFC Championship that year, Bledsoe played most of the game instead of an injured Brady and NE still won. The whole team came out together for the Super Bowl introductions. He threw for 145 yards in the SB and had to do very little most of the game. Yes, he had a great final drive, but if his defense doesn’t score 7 points, set up other scores for the offense and hold the high scoring Rams to 17 points, and if his kicker isn’t clutch, Brady is an afterthought.
When does Garoppolo get $60 million to go stink somewhere else?
Beyond the myths, there is one enormous reason why I think Brady is overrated and I can sum it up in two words: Matt Cassel.
In 2008 Matt Cassel–who had not started any football game at QB since high school–was forced into NE’s first game due to a Brady injury. He led them to an 11-5 season, throwing for 21 TDs, 11 Ints and 3,700 yards. Brady came back the next year, Cassel got a huge contract from Kansas City, and proceeded to go 4-11 his first year there with 15 TDs and 15 ints. And after four years he bombed out with them so badly some KC fans cheered when he got hurt in 2012. Since then he has been shipped around the league, playing back-up for four teams the last four seasons.
Here are some stats to consider:
| Cassel with New England | 1.9 to 1 TD to Int ratio |
| Cassel with other teams | 1.2 to 1 TD to Int ratio |
| Cassel with New England | 63.4 Com. % |
| Cassel with other teams | 57.1 Com % |
| Cassel with New England | 11-5 record (69% winning %) |
| Cassel with other teams | 24-39 (38% winning %) |
In addition to above, Cassel’s career high in yards per attempt and BY FAR his career highs in yards per game and QBR came in 2008 with New England. The conclusion, to me, is clear: Cassel looked like a true bona fide NFL starter in his only year starting with New England and has looked like second string (and at times like a bum) everywhere else he’s been. Reason, on this info alone, tells us that it is easier to play QB in New England than in other places in the NFL.
But, But, But!!!!
However, I have heard these counterarguments:
A. But he inherited a 16-0 team that set NFL records on offense and they were far worse.
This is, in some sense, true. But there are several other things to consider. First, the 2007 Patriots were 1st in the NFL in scoring offense and 1st in yards. The 2008 Patriots were 5th in scoring and 8th in yards. So it’s not like they were struggling on offense.
Secondly, this compares Brady in his 8th NFL season and 7th as a starter to Matt Cassel in his 4th NFL season and 1st as a starter and his first year starting at any level since high school. Let me ask you this: If Cassel had 6 extra years as a starter when he took over the 2008 Patriots, do you think he would have done better? Is it reasonable to conclude that Cassel with Brady 07 experience would have been a better QB in 08? Yes. Absolutely. What is that worth? A couple of wins? A few places on the offensive rank list?
All of a sudden the differences between Brady and Cassel are not as stark.
Lastly, this also ignores the fact that Brady came back in 2009, had the same weapons on offense as 07 and 08, had a better defense statistically than in 08 and went 10-6 and came nowhere close to setting offensive records. 08 Cassel is comparable to 09 Brady. To be fair, Brady had just come back from injury and that is the year NE lost Josh McDaniels. So I think Brady in a normal year would have been better. How much better? 12 wins? 13? That is really my theory on Brady for over a decade now: you take Brady out and put in a 1st year starting scrub and you lose a couple of wins. I would think the G.O.A.T would have more impact than that.
B. But they missed the playoffs!
This also needs qualifying. New England was 11-5 in 2008 (same record as their first Super Bowl year) and they are the only team in NFL history in the current playoff system to ever miss the playoffs with that record. Every other 11-5 team–as well as scores of 10-6, 9-7, 8-8 and and even a 7-9 team–has made it. They also tied for the division title that year and split with Miami in the season series and lost on like the 29th tie breaker and missed out on the wild card after like the 116th tie breaker to Baltimore. New England missed the playoffs in a seeing Haley’s comet like probability occurance.
Also to consider is that New England finished the season 4-0. In their last six games, they went on the road and beat the other division champ Miami by 20 points with Cassel throwing for 400 yards and then whipped eventual Super Bowl runner up Arizona by 40. They were getting hot. You would expect a first year starter to get better as the season went on. The longer Cassel was a starter, the better he and the team did and the less valuable Brady seemed.
C. But Cassel looked good with Kansas City in 2010.
There are a few problems with this rebuttal to me. First, you have to consider his whole Kansas City career to understand the point. He was average to terrible in three of four years in KC. Secondly, he was a third year starter in KC in 2010, compared to a 1st year starter in NE. I’d expect him to be a better QB at that point. Even with that, Cassel still had better stats in most categories in Year 1 with NE than in Year 3 with KC, TDs vs Ints being the exception. He also won more games in 2008 with New England.
Also, as mentioned, 2010 with Kansas City was an outlier statistically compared to the other three years he had with them. I think a couple of things explain why. First that was the only year he had Charlie Weiss as his offensive coordinator (Romeo Crennel was also the defensive coordinator…Crennel and Weiss were the coordinators for the first 3 Super Bowl wins in New England). Secondly, and related to that point, Kansas City had the #1 rushing offense in the NFL in 2010. That no doubt helped Cassel tremendously and in reality proves my point: if you surround a bad QB with a good team, they can thrive. First year starter Tim Tebow in 2011 had the #1 rushing offense behind him and had 12 TDs to 6 ints. Now he’s out of the league. In 2013 first year starter Nick Foles had the #1 rushing attack in Philadelphia and had 27 TDs vs 2 Ints. Now he’s a back up.
I think it’s safe to say that having the #1 rushing attack makes most QBs look a lot better than they are. Just like playing for the Patriots makes a QB look a lot better than he is. 2010 Cassel, with former Patriot coordinators and favorable team circumstances, proves my point.
There are 3 ‘i’s in Phillip Rivers!
Let me be clear that I think Brady is a good QB. I’m not really comparing him to Cassel or Garapollo. I think he could have good stats with most teams. But would he win with other teams or just be a Phillip Rivers type who has numbers but doesn’t win? Make no mistake, Brady’s exalted as the G.O.A.T. because he wins. With the same franchise that saw Cassel, Jimmy G and Brisket reel off 7 straight wins in games Brady could not play in.
Maybe Garoppalo will go on to be great somewhere else. But in the meantime, I ask: Would Steve Young have had the stats and wins if he’d stayed in Tampa Bay as he did in San Fransisco? Would Cassel have had more success if Brady had never come back and he was able to stay in NE from 08 to the present? Or, would Brady have 4 titles if he’d been drafted by the Jacksonville Jaguars? How many QBs could have won in Denver last year? 25? I think the reasonable answers to these questions center around the QB not mattering as much as we think. And that means those guys who are ranked high because “They’re winners” are typically overrated.
Brady is by far the king of that bunch.
For a more balanced take where Brady’s career accomplishments are lauded in a Brady vs. Brees debate, please go here.
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This is gospel. Just a few more points:
1. In 2008, the AFC East was way harder than in 2007, as Miami and the Jets were much improved. Also, the Pats weren’t running up the score in 2008 like they did in 07 (because of Spygate). That’s a major reason why Brady broke the record (well, that, and adding Moss, the real MVP in my eyes).
2. Speaking of the AFC East, it has been a dumpster fire since 2001, Brady’s first season. Pat fans tell me how they have a decent record in games outside of the division. However, I added up the games that each of them have had against winning teams from 2001-15 (in the regular season). It’s not pretty:
Buffalo: 21-96
Jets: 31-71
Miami: 36-73
When I brought this up on You Tube, a Pat fan added the playoffs to that, and then he accused me of cherry picking stats. Typical. They can’t handle the truth.
Also, those teams have had over 40 different starting QB’s and 17 different HC’s in that span. When the Pats are the paragon of stability, and these other teams are the Keystone Kops, it is bound to make you look better than you really are.
Good info.
Part of me hates it that the Brady legacy actually gets breaks when it comes to the back ups. I’d give $100 to see how that 08 Patriot team would have done in the playoffs. Maybe they go out 1st round but maybe they win it all. Then Brady looks far less important.
Same this year. If Garap plays all 4 games I think it’s much more likely they win all 4. It was great to see Brisket come in and win one, but the team was too terrible as a whole vs. Buffalo for a third string rookie to help win (penalties that negated a 90 yard TD and put them in 3rd and longs, missed FG, the defense could not get off the field in the 1st half, etc.)
It gets a break because the media has praised Tom since his first SB win. It seems to me that there is an agenda to make this guy into a hero.
An example was at halftime of the 2003 Titans-Pats AFC Playoff game. Brady didn’t play well, and they would have been losing if Steve McNair didn’t miss two wide open guys, but Boomer Esiason was praising Tom to the hilt anyway. And, he wasn’t great that year. The Patriot offense was mediocre in 2003 (they were winning games 12-0 and 9-3).
Also, getting back to the subject of winning teams, here’s another fun fact: In 2011 (the fifth SB season for the Brady-Belichick team), guess what their record was against winning teams during the regular season? 0-2 (they lost to the Giants and Steelers).
This article is hilarious. Just proves that anyone can write garbage. Salty and pathetic comes to mind. Talk when you actually know something about football. Pat’s fan. Since 75′
Thank you for your comment. I admit I am biased against Brady. But I still think much of the information is true.
It is actually pretty stupid to use a backup as proof of how good a player is.
you need to admit that YOU are a sub-mongoloid…
Would you care to respond to the information presented? Clearly you disagree, but the question is why. You didn’t give any evidence to the contrary.
Typical Pat fan. No truth. Just ridicule.
Well I guess that 31 point ripping of the falcons probably got you saying the GREATEST of all time 🙂
This is a sensational article. Gospel.
I know New Englanders think it’s all Brady, but there’s not a chance he would have a fraction of the success he’s had outside of Belichick’s system. Belichick proved that he can win in New England with anyone. And he knows it. The only time Brady won Super Bowls was when he had a lights out defense. There’s no way he could build or carry a franchise, right out of college, like Peyton did. Give me Peyton over Brady 100 times out of 100.
Excellent points. I didn’t remember but you’re right – THREE wins by scores like 9-3 and 12-0. I also remember, and this is more commonly known that your info, that the kicker basically kicked a block of ice 48 yards to beat Tennessee in the playoffs that year. That’s good team support.
I like that quote you put in this entry from Skip Bayless about how Brady supposedly “made” Welker in 2007. Bayless is such a Brady fan boy, just like everyone else on ESPN and FS1. I am so sick of Brady. As a Bronco fan, I can’t wait until Dec. 18th. If the Broncos are healthy (they have had some injuries. Ware is coming back, but C.J. Anderson is out indefinitely, and LB Brandon Marshall may not be playing on Sunday), they should take the overrated Pats at home.
Switching gears, though, that Titan playoff loss 13 years ago was the end of the line for that SB 34 core (McNair, George, D. Mason, etc…) as SB contenders. They didn’t go to the playoffs again for four years, and after two trips to the playoffs, they haven’t made it back since.
I agree. His legacy is sealed and was a long time ago. He was mediocre at best in the two SB losses yet no talk about that. Just red herrings. I also keep hearing about how great a season Brady is having statistically, even though his stats are proportionally exactly what Garop’s were.
Mediocre at best in his 2 SB losses? He ran into a really hot defense and was constantly on his back. Still put the team in position with a potential game winning scoring drive in both games.
Nothing about those games is more than “eh”. The stats are not good, they didn’t score much and the eye test shows he wasn’t that good. The big drop by Welker in 2011 was a bad pass.
Was not a bad pass. Back shoulder throw to avoid hit from safety. Too bad someone who never played QB wrote this article. Go back to your day job. Let the pros tell you the best is. They will ALL say Brady.
The safety was over 5 yards away. A good QB could have put it inside for an easy catch. He probably would have gotten hit because (and you will be stunned that I know this since I know nothing about QB-ing) in football receivers get hit after they catch it and somehow still produce completions.
Bill Simmons, mega Brady sychophant who was at the game at the 40 yard line commented that it was a “[crappy] pass”. I’ll take his word over yours. As well as my own eyes and basic football logic.
I have never been a Tom Brady fan…still I would have to consider him one of the top 5 QB’s ever to live. (probably top 3)
With that in mind, this year has really exhausted me of all the Tom Brady love by the media, especially in the discussion for league MVP. His stats were impressive in a TD/INT ratio vacuum. But other than that one metric, he has not been better than other guys who played 16 games. And when you stop to consider that his team already had the playoffs wrapped up after the 11th game and their division won after the 13th game, their was little to no pressure on the guy for his last 3-5 games. So he was playing much more freely and loosely than QB’s with more pressure on them at the time. Still, his numbers in those last 6 weeks of the regular season were dwarfed by other guys who had to win to either (A) get into the playoffs (Rodgers) or (B) gain due respect from media after past failures (Ryan).
Rodgers and Ryan were as clutch as clutch could be coming down the stretch of the regular season. Yet, all the talk I’ve been hearing from media guys who have MVP voting credentials has been about how they keep coming back to Brady and have to give the award to him. It seems they are all Brady fan-boys. If you inflated his numbers over 16 games, you come out with Matt Ryan’s actual season numbers. Who’s more valuable? If you look at the teams who wouldn’t even sniff the playoffs without their starting QB, the Raiders proved they are a sub-.500 team without Derek Carr. And the Packers should’ve been a 5 or 6 win team this year, except Superman Aaron Rodgers showed up the last 6 games to save their season. Again, who’s more valuable to the team?
The Patriots were 3-1 without Brady, with 2 wins against playoff teams. Now, they should’ve been able to keep up that percentage for the rest of the year. So with a backup QB, they finish 12-4 with a first-round bye instead of 14-2 with home-field throughout. Meanwhile, Green Bay and Oakland don’t come close to the playoff without Rodgers and Carr; and the Falcons may still squeak in without Ryan, but they definitely don’t get a first-round bye.
There is little to no doubt in my mind that 4-5 players deserve to be MVP over Tom Brady this year. I won’t argue past years. But this year has taught me the insanity of the media’s Brady-love/hype. If he wins MVP this year, they need to look for a new process. Ryan, Rodgers, Carr, and Zeke Elliott all are clearly ahead of Brady IMO. And Dak Prescott is on equal ground with him. 4 out of those 5 played 16 games to Brady’s 12, and Carr got his team to 12 wins in 15 games. Then they got destroyed the last 2 games (including playoffs) without him.
I would love to hear some of your thoughts on the MVP this year.
It’s hard for me to see this one objectively. Beyond the 12 game thing, I think New England looked exceptional in three of their 4 games without Brady. And I wish I could prove it (tho I can’t) but I am not too doubtful if Garop didn’t get hurt they’d have been 4-0. Brady seems to get those legacy breaks: the first year he was out 11-5 wasn’t good enough for the playoffs for the only time ever in a 12-team field (and 11-5 or worse has won the SB a bunch) and this year instead of a sterling 4-0 with Garop, the guy gets hurt after six blistering quarters of play and 3-1 takes just enough of the point away that people can say, “But hey Brady was 11-1!”
But beyond my bias and with the 12-game info, you make valid points. Value should mean something. it’s the crux of my “Brady is overrated” article above. I don’t think he makes NE a ton better than the average to terrible QBs that have backed him up. You can see it GB and you saw it in Oakland and I can only guess you’d see it in Atl too.
Brady wasn’t even the best player that was suspended to start the year. Hands down that would go to Leveon Bell who finished 3rd on the ALL time list for total Ypg.
As far as the Brady is the goat sentiment I laugh. IMHO to be the greatest of all time you kinda had to be able to dominate in any era. Anyone who thinks Brady could have flourished in the old NFL is kidding themselves. Back when the QB wasn’t essentially wearing a red jersey. When you were allowed to play defense on reciecers. Long before the Brady vs Manning comparison i often argued with people about Montanna vs Marino for who was better qb. My number 1 question was always how many superbowls would Marino have won if he qb’ed the 49’ers.
Lastly, outside of the media bias for Brady there is an obvious nfl/officiating bias. There is a reason why the patriots only used 1 challenge this season. Calls have always seemed to benefit them. Be it a fumble call to a roughing the passer call. I was recently watching sounds of the game from the NE/Houston playoff game. After watching edelman push off several times, instead of throwing a flag on him an official actually waited for a timeout to go and warn him that if he keeps it up then a flag will get thrown.
Agree with this. I have no doubt Marino with several other franchises could have won SBs. Miami’s record when he was hurt was terrible.
apt_pupil, you get it. A lot of people (including those talking heads on FS1) don’t.
Lmao you did watch super bowl 51 right but,..but.., ryan he got MVP he must of had a ton a pressure on him blowing the ridiculous lead to the GREATEST of all time and Brady didn’t even breaks a sweat
This is a well written article in terms of technicality and presentation. Unfortunately it’s loaded with lots of misplaced bias.
First, Brady is not simply a “good” qb. He is an all-time great qb compared to many others who have played the position and he has the stats, the awards, and the rings to back up his success on the field. Those facts do not care about your feelings.
Second, If the premise of the article is that Tom Brady is overrated, then how about providing info on any quarterback with similar or equal success that would give the original premise of the article some validation. What you do instead is you bring up Matt Cassel and use him as a way to devalue the impact that Brady has on the team. Specifically in paragraph C.
“There are a few problems with this rebuttal to me. First, you have to consider his whole Kansas City career to understand the point. He was average to terrible in three of four years in KC. Secondly, he was a third year starter in KC in 2010, compared to a 1st year starter in NE. I’d expect him to be a better QB at that point. Even with that, Cassel still had better stats in most categories in Year 1 with NE than in Year 3 with KC, TDs vs Ints being the exception. He also won more games in 2008 with New England.”
TD’s vs INT’s cannot be relegated to a mere exception. The most important stat in the game, besides wins, is points. And Matt Cassel produced more points that year with KC than any year in his career. That is a fact. I also find it interesting how it matters that he won more games with New England in 08 with KC in 2010. This seems to matter to you but in paragraph A if the Matt Cassel portion of your argument you’re rolling Matt Cassel New England stats vs Matt Cassel Everywhere else stats to try and prove a point that anyone could play and win quarterback in New England succesfully, thus ultimately devaluing the impact Brady has on the team. This is complete rubbish. That ’08 roster was virtually identical to the ’07 roster with the exception of the qb. Brady’s TD to INT ratio in ’07 was 6.25 to 1, which blows Cassel’s 1.9 to 1 completely out of the water. Brady’s completion percentage in ’07 was 68.9, which, again, blows Cassel’s 63.4 percentage in ’08 sky high. And then there are the wins. The dropoff was 5 games. In the NFL, 5 games is the different between awful to average, and average to great. What if those those ’07 Pats went 12-4, and that’s the best they could do. Wouldn’t it be theoretically correct that based on the 5 game dropoff, the ’08 Pats would’ve been 7-9, and much less of a threat without Brady at the helm? The fact of the matter is the impact of the dropoff did not seem so prevelant to the team’s playoff contention, not just because they finished 11-5 in ’08, but because the Patriots went 16-0 the year prior, with vastly superior statistics thanks in part to a vastly superior quarterback.
I’m not following the logic in saying that Matt Cassel only had 2 decent/good years but he’s been a bum all those other years, while accounting for all the years Brady has had and concluding that he’s overrated. If Brady is overrated, then who isn’t?
Matt Cassel can lead a team to 11-5 or 10-6.. That’s nice. Tom Brady can lead teams to Superbowls, as he has done 6 times, so far. Clearly, one player is more valuable than the other. But alas, that never truly was the premise of this article, which leads too my third and final point.
The number if ‘i’s in Phillip Rivers is totally irrelevant. Just as imagining what Steve Young might have done had he been a Buccaneer is irrelevant. Just as what Tom Brady might do if he were quarterbacking the Jaguars instead of the Patriots is irrelevant. How much success (or failure) Matt Cassel could have had if he had remained a Patriot is a thought that absolutely no one thinks twice about. These types scenarios are in no way based on reality. Hence, the facts. What IS based in reality is that Tom Brady is the all-time #1 winning quarterback (and yes, wins matter), a former MVP who still plays at an elite level who might break more individual qb records before his career is done, and who’s post-season success is virtually unmatched. A track record like that is hardly “overrated”. But if you think the number of wins and rings makes a great player who contributed to those wins and championships overrated, then by that logic I guess Bill Russell with his 11 rings, Babe Ruth with his 7, & Michael Jordan with his 6 are all overrated as well.
I appreciate the compliment to begin with. Sincerely, thank you.
If you want info on similar or equal QBs as validation of the premise of the article, I point to how poorly Indianapolis did without Manning, Miami did without Marino and Green Bay has done without Rodgers. Some QBs are harder to prove this for, since players like Elway didn’t miss huge stretches of games by the aforementioned guys, but it is a fact that their teams struggled without them. NE has not struggled without Brady. San Fransisco did not struggle without Montana. Pittsburgh did not struggle without Bradshaw. Winning 4 rings in a team sport of 22 starters, 35-40 guys who play and numerous coaches isn’t even close to a top criteria to me.
All of your response about Cassel is rebutted above but I’ll repeat it. You cannot bring up the roster of 07 and not mention the roster of 09. Same O-line, same basic weapons at skill positions and a statistically better defense than 08. And 10-6. Brady first year back yes, so he’s probably done better in a healthy year. But 10-6 is low and 16-0 is high. 16-0 is an outlier that NE hasn’t really come close to repeating and I don’t think Brady has even 40 TDs in any other year of his career. So I don’t think theoretical Brady stats of 08 would be as good as 07.
But regardless if they were, it’s not the point. I’m not comparing Brady to Cassel. I expect a Top 20-25 QB of all time to be much better than Cassel, *starting for the first time since high school,* and a career scrub who can’t get a starting gig anywhere else and only got one shot as a starter because of how good he looked driving the Cadillac in NE. And as mentioned above, the fair comparison of Cassel 08 to Brady 07 (still not forgetting Brady 09) would be if Cassel had 7 years as a starter instead of 0. Do I think Cassel with 7 years starting experience would have been better in 08. Of course yes. That’s QB common sense.
But the point is how much better he looked in NE vs. the rest of his career. If Cassel is that much better in NE as a first year starter than several years with several other teams – significantly better even – that i can only conclude playing QB in NE is easier. And so Brady’s accomplishments are docked in my mind.
As far as the one year in KC, it’s also explained above: he was a 3rd year QB, not a first year and I expect him to be better. He also had the #1 rushing attack, which I proved very easily makes QBs better and makes terrible QBs look good often. Yet most of his stats and his win total were still worse that year.
“Matt Cassel can lead a team to 11-5…” Yes, first year starting since high school Matt Cassel can lead the Patriots to 11-5, a record good enough or better to win the Super Bowl in 01, 05, 10 and I’m sure other years. Just bad luck they missed the playoffs. ONly time it’s ever happened. And I have no doubt if he could have kept QBing them he would have had many playoff appearances and probably a SB or two. Brady is better than him because Brady isn’t awful.
And not the last part is not irrelevant. I don’t have to imagine what Steve Young would be like in TB. I have two years of data. the other stuff is theory but with evidence.
“Who’s postseason evidence is virtually unmatched…” Not impressive in a team sport. Brady has only two times played with a bottom half of the league defense for PPG – both times 17th coincidentally – and less coincidentally those happen to be his two worst win totals of his career, 9 wins missing the playoffs and 10 wins out in the division round. Manning, Marino, Rodgers, etc. meanwhile have had to drag D’s that were 20th or 25th or worse to the playoffs or missed the playoffs as a result. To your question “Who isn’t (overrated)?” Those guys are not.
That matters. Team matters. It’s been proven over and over. If Flacco has as many wins in the playoffs and a better record the Rogers, if Eli had as many PO wins by 2011 and two more SBs than Marino, if Jim Plunkett has as many SBs as John Elway, if Brad Johnson has more than Marino, then we need to find a new criteria other than “playoff success”.
1. I am a Bronco fan, and I remember Elway missing several games in November and December of 1992. Guess what happened: a 7-3 team only won one more game the rest of the year, and they missed the playoffs.
2. As for Pittsburgh, they didn’t struggle in 74 and 76 too much without Bradshaw. Joe Gilliam (the black Dan Marino) started the season, but was benched inexplicably after leading the Steelers to a 4-1-1 record. And, in 76, rookie Mike Kruczek kept the Steelers winning (albeit they were winning with running and legendary D). In 1981, though, the Steelers were 8-5 before Bradshaw got hurt in Oakland. They didn’t win another game.
3. I agree that Brady’s stats in 08 wouldn’t have been as good. They weren’t running up the score that year because of a Spygate hissyfit.
Thanks for the info on Elway missing time. I wasn’t aware. I was a Marino fan back then and remember him missing and the Scott Mitchell days. More proof that the Greatest QBs (to me) – Marino, Manning, Elway – were more essential to team success than the “Winners”.
So the backups for Marino, Elway and Manning sucked and didn’t play well…that has no influence on how great or overrated a starter is.
When a back up comes in and plays well for 16 games and extremely well towards the end, and then tanks out with numerous franchises, it’s safe to say his first franchise was awesome. When back ups come in to prolific offenses and struggle, it probably means the QB has more of an affect on the O than in the first situation I described. This is reasonable to me.
Wow, not surprised that more comments have come in since the playoffs started.
Here is what is sad, though: On Undisputed the other day, Shannon Sharpe said that Brady will be the GOAT if he beats Atlanta, and there will be no argument. No argument? I don’t think that’s right.
It wouldn’t matter to me if Brady had 5, 6 or 9 SBs. In theory a QB could hand off every play and win 13 SB’s. I know he’s way more valuable than that, but I also have little doubt that Jimmy could could have won 12 or more games this year and both the playoff games so far easily.
Jimmy’s a good QB. In an alternate universe where Manning doesn’t come to Denver, he may be the Bronco QB today.
He may be very good. He sure looked like an all-star in 6 quarter this year. I thought Manning at first made a mistake going to Denver. But he got more records and another ring so it worked out for sure. I have never liked John Fox. As a Bears fan I like him less than ever.
On a Bronco fan forum I go on, me and another guy talked about how lucky Fox was in 2003 (with the several OT wins he had). And, he actually had Jake Delhomme on the bench in favor of Rodney Peete in Week 1 of that season against Jacksonville. They only came back when Peete got hurt and John had to put Delhomme in. If they don’t win that game, and if they don’t block an extra point against TB in Week 2 (to force OT), they start 0-2, and Fox’s career may not have lasted that long.
Also, on that same forum, someone talked about an interesting quote from their father after the Broncos hired Fox. This guy said something about how the Broncos replaced the worst coach in the league (McDaniels) with the second worst coach (Fox).
We will never know….but I don’t think Jimmy could have completed a comeback like Brady did.
I don’t know he could have either. Jimmy is not as good a QB as Brady. He could have made most of the plays but I am not sure about all of them. It’s super easy to play QB in NE but Brady also makes difficult throws at times. Both things can be true.
Uh, when can we expect the update to this article?
Not now. Facts remain the same.
Agreed. A lot of people on the internet are claiming him right now as the GOAT, but the facts are that Atlanta lost the game more than Tom and the Patriots won it. And, it shows again that Tom is the luckiest QB of all-time, not the greatest.
Agreed in turn. I”ll be glad to make a reasonable (to me anyway) argument against using Sunday as some grand ceremony to anoint King Brady if anyone wants, but my arguments for QBs since the 80s back when Marino and Montana and Elway were slinging it around and what happened Sunday doesn’t put in a dent in that argument. People can call me biased and stubborn and I’m sure I am but I think the criteria is consistent and not absurd by any means. Brady made some good throws Sunday, but he also played terribly at times, had the horseshoe many times and needed two dozen things he could not control to happen in the 4th quarter alone just to have a chance to win.
I’ll give him something else as well that may put him up a couple of spots on my list, but nowhere near the GOAT: He is playing better at 39 than anyone else.
But Sunday actually made this article more relevant. He went from a 2-3 horse race for GOAT to the clear winner. It’s more images from Sunday than actual substance. Plus having 5 rings makes him Jordan to most people I would guess. Means little to me.
LUCK? LOL! What are you 12?
Atlanta lost the game? For them to lose, wouldn’t the Patriots have to win?
Did the Patriots lose the first half?
Ahahahaha I love it I love reading about the hurt from other people accept already it’s ok he is the greatest of all time lmfao that’s hilarious lucky ahahaha I don’t even know what you were watching buddy but it wasn’t super bowl 51 lmfao! BRADY GOAT!
“People can call me biased and stubborn and I’m sure I am”.
You should read that to yourself a few times. Your mind is made up, It really doesn’t matter how many more accomplishments Brady might achieve while leading the Patriots. Might be time to move on from beating this drum.
I really have no interest in continuing to initiate a discussion it because the Kool-aide is so widely drunk I don’t stand much of a change of changing anyone’s minds any more. People will remember the few good throws from Sunday (and the rest of his career) more than the million things he could not affect or things that were abnormally lucky that nearly no other QB has experienced.
But if people comment here I owe them the courtesy of responding. So I will.
I think by “the Kool-aide is so widely drunk I don’t stand much of a change of changing anyone’s minds any more” you really mean to say that at this point everyone – including even the residual naysayers who once desperately sought out others that shared their irrationally biased opinion on this matter – has witnessed Tom Brady lead the Patriots to Super Bowl victories so many times over the course of nearly two decades that they’ve given up trying to cobble together an argument that he’s not the greatest quarterback of all time. Is that what you mean? Because there is no more debate. It’s over. Go find something else to be wrong about. I’ll leave this here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Denialism
And again, Kenny, you’re perspective is the problem. Teams win titles, not QB’s. Brady is a product of NE’s success the last 15 years. He isn’t a transcendent talent who would have went anywhere and made them great. Also, he has had a lot of bizarre playoff wins in that time span (Tuck Rule, Lee Evans, Marlon McCree, Donovan McNabb taking 90 years to get Philly to the end zone, etc….).
“He isn’t a transcendent talent who would have went anywhere and made them great.”
But this perspective is also part of the problem. How do we measure greatness for teams? There is only one way IMO…by winning championships. If this is the case, then there’s not a single person ever who has lived up to that criteria at a consistent level. So there are no great players. I think your statement would make more sense if worded “He isn’t a transcendent talent who would have gone anywhere and made them a contender.” But being a contender alone doesn’t make the team great. Winning does.
“He isn’t a transcendent talent who would have went anywhere and made them great” this is subjective and un-provable drivel. Except for Peyton and Kurt, who went elsewhere and flourished on different teams. Fact-with the game on the line, very few, if any, have flourished like the GOAT Brady.
1) Brady
2) Unitus
3) Marino
4) Montana
5) Peyton
6) Staubach
7) Baugh
8) Graham
9) Elway
10) Favre
Hey, it’s Kenny Genius. The guy from a couple years ago who was ridiculed for my ‘problematic opinion’ – aka an opinion that doesn’t match yours. Yet, since we last spoke, Tom Brady has only continued to separate himself at the GOAT of all GOATs. I tried to warn you not to die on this hill. Just letting you know it’s okay to admit it when you’re wrong about something. He’s a link for those of you ready to accept truth and move on: https://www.caring.com/articles/deal-with-denial
Things You Can Do to Deal With Denial
1. Be patient.
2. Distinguish denial from lack of knowledge.
3. Calmly repeat the facts.
4. Disentangle your own ego. *seems like this should be a point of focus for some of you here.
5. Encourage talk about the very things being avoided.
6. Don’t confuse denial with giving up hope.
You can hope the Patriots lose to the Rams in the super bowl this year. You can hope Tom Brady retires so you don’t have to watch him. But Tom Brady is the GOAT and there’s nothing you can do or say to change that.
– KG
Holy crap! You just proved you know nothing about football!!!
No, that’s not what I mean. I have not given up the argument, just that I had no intention of initiating it to appear insecure, because i am not. My argument pre-SB XI is above. As far as this SB, the argument is very, very easy. If you watch a full 20 minute highlight package, given here:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=016LXFHpFCk&t=1015s
…it’s hard for me to take this game as another piece of evidence that “Tom Brady lead his team to a SB win”. The facts against it are legion.
1. He threw a pick 6 to help build the hole.
2. He missed Hogan and Amendola numerous times open
3. He needed luck for a tipped pass on the 1st half FG drive to not only not be intercepted, but to be caught for a good positive gain (you can hear Troy Aikman on the telecast say, “How often is that pass intercepted…?) That 3 points was huge.
4. His defense held Atlanta to 14 below their season average, 7 points in the 2nd half and 0 in the last 22 minutes.
5. HIs defense forced a crucial fumble to give them a 25 yard field.
6. Atlanta had to make an insane amount of inexcusable mistakes for them to have a chance: Not running on 3rd and 1, abysmal protection on 3rd and 1, not letting the clock run down another 50-60 seconds on several plays in the 4th, not even getting a FG attempt from 2nd and 1 at the 32 after the onside kick, everything that happened after 1st and 10 at the 22 with yet another no FG attempt, blowing all 3 time outs, etc etc etc.
7. Atlanta’s defense being gassed and not getting any pressure on the last two long TD drives by NE…I lost track of how often Aikmans said “Clean pocket”. The only play they got pressure was the first one of the tying drive, and Brady threw an awful pass that had 3 Falcon defenders close to it and no one from his team.
8. The miracle catch…so many things had to break right for Amendola to even have a chance to catch it – it could have been picked, it had to rest on the arm and leg of the Falcon db for as long as it did…and it was still one of the most incredible catches you’ll ever see.
9. The last pass in OT in the end zone, nearly being picked off.
10. The coin flip going to NE.
And so many more things you can’t get from that 20 minute video. But all of that is either Brady playing terrible or getting lucky or benefitting from things out of his control. Yet the narrative has always been “Brady led them to victory” even as far back as 2001 when he had a whopping 1 TD pass in three playoff games.
He did have a few drops that went against him. But nothing even close to the avalanche of good fortune that caused that comeback. So much is out of the QB’s control I don’t base opinions on winning and losing. He made some good throws on those last drives. But he also had as much time as he wanted, a great series of calls by McDaniels that gave him some easy throws for big gains, etc. etc. etc.
At the end of the day, Rodgers played much better vs. that Atlanta D – which was the 2nd worst ever for a SB team as far as points allowed and 25/27th in the league this year – than Brady did. The biggest difference was that Atlanta kept scoring in the NFC Championship. He didn’t get a million breaks.
And that is why this argument will never be over. And why “there is no more debate” is not an argument.
You just did to Kenny’s argument what Mcnally and Jastremski did to those footballs. That is the part of the argument that you intentionally didn’t address because you can destroy the myth without even needing it. I will, however, serve it up as an exclamation point. All of the Patriots accomplishments over the last 15 years (and Brady’s since he gets all the credit) are suspect because they were caught with two huge cheating scandals. If they were caught twice, how many times have they cheated and not gotten caught? Lance Armstrong and Barry Bonds can never be considered the greatest at their sports because of cheating and neither can Brady.
To me, this is the best argument against Brady/Belichick being the best. And the one that is often seriously overlooked by sports media everywhere.
I don’t deny there is a place for this and yes, people seem to think that Brady got Goodell back by winning so it’s all over for that argument. But the team aspect and more so the “breaks” of the game drive me more crazy than the alleged cheating. I don’t know why. Two plays nearly as crucial as any in NFL playoff history: Brady’s Tuck non-fumble and Matt Ryan’s 3rd and 1 fumble. One man was clearly not throwing, and fumbled, but it wasn’t a fumble by ruling. The other man was clearly throwing, got it stripped before he could complete his motion, but it was a fumble, by ruling. Legacies rest on this nonsense.
And the only three guys who have the horseshoe to complete that pass to Amendola are Brady, Russell Wilson and Eli. Thank goodness Eli was born or we’d be hearing about 7 time champ Brady.
Wasn’t it Edelman that made that crazy catch? Not that it affects your point at all.
Rodgers played better?
60% 287 yds 3tds 1int 91.6rat
Than Brady ?
69%. 466 yds 2tds 1int 95.2rat
Not sure what you are looking at, but I’m pretty sure this pretty much proves that you are a biased know nothing hack.
Brady’s stats got to be run up because his D stopped Atlanta from scoring more than 21. And he got a ton of breaks to keep them in the game he didn’t control. If Rodgers’ D had done the same, and gotten the same breaks, then he could have added to his stats like Brady did. Stats do not tell the whole story.
It may have been. I don’t mean to insult those guys by getting them backwards, they are excellent players and would be on any team I am guessing. More than Welker or Woodhead I can’t keep them straight because they play together.
Here are some interesting numbers considering the percentages of AFC/NFC championship games and Super Bowls in which a QB could have played during his career. Also, the win percentages of Super Bowls won against how many years the QB played. And remember, I am not a Brady apologist, but these percentages are factual. As you can see, the results aren’t really even close.
Tom Brady has been in 73% (11-15) of the AFC CG in his career, winning 7 of them (47% of the CG in his career). He has won the Super Bowl 33% of the years he has played. So in essence, he has been to 3/4 of the AFC CG and 1/2 of the Super Bowls he could have played in during his career, winning every third Super Bowl.
Compare that to others, and the closest competitor to him in a GOAT QB argument (since the 1970 AFL/NFL merger) is Roger Staubach who only played for 10 seasons, but went to 7 (70%) NFC CG and won 5 (50%) of them. But he only won 2 (20% for his career) Super Bowls he played.
Montana went to 7 NFC/AFC CG in his 15 seasons (47%), Bradshaw to 6 AFC CG in his 14 seasons (43%), Elway to 6 in his 16 seasons (38%), and Roethlisberger to 5 in his 13 seasons (38%).
Brady (33%) is the only one who has won the Super Bowl over 30% of the seasons he has played. Bradshaw (29%), Montana (27%)
Obviously, the Patriots have been the gold-standard for organizational team success. But Belichick, Brady, and Kraft have been the only real constants during their incredible run. Other pieces have come and gone, but Brady has lasted.
Of course if you start throwing around stats like that, you’ll find they are better for Donavan McNabb than for Dan Marino, for Ben Roethlisberger than Peyton Manning, etc.
Others have come and gone but much more than Brady has lasted for NE. They’ve never ever had a D worse than 17th in his entire career there. Twice it was that low and they are the two worst win totals of his career. Many years they are Top 5 and nearly always Top 10. On the other hand, two of the 5 worst D’s ever by PPG that made the Super Bowl belonged to Peyton Manning. You’ll see that he and Marino and Rodgers and Brees and I’m sure many other elite QBs have dealt with D’s in the 20’s and even high 20’s many times in their careers. It’s just not a fair evaluation. It’s why the ole “So and so out dueled so and so” headline is idiotic. Unless the two QBs are facing identical defenses and have the same coaching staffs and the same weapons, etc. that is almost never what happens.
And I won’t even rehash 2008. The data is up there. Brady was not the only constant…with a QB who clearly is not an NFL starter they had a playoff type season.
I’ll give Brady props for playing to 39 so well, although I have little doubt that if Montana played in this red jersey era instead of getting pounded by the Giants and Bears year after year, he’d have played in an won the 94 SB and perhaps others that Steve Young couldn’t.
As a lifelong 49ers fan, I will totally agree with you on Montana. He is superior to Young. Even though some of Young’s stats may be slightly better, my heart and big game clutch moments tell me Montana was at least much more consistent if not dominant to Young.
As for the info about % of Championships above, I just figured a guy who likes statistics and numbers as much as you do would find them interesting. And like any statistics, they were not given to be used as the only criteria to measure greatness. Still, even you have to admit that Brady’s percentages for a 15 season career are incredible. He’s been to 3/4 of the AFC Championship games he could have possibly played. That’s dominance.
And I already admitted that Brady isn’t the only one who has lasted. Belichick and Kraft have been there the whole time, too. So the team system is dominant. But it sure helps to have the right captain on board to steer the ship during the hard times. Brady has been the right captain for the perfect system. I don’t think that is luck.
Ah, I was going on your last statement about how everyone else had come and gone except Brady. I don’t deny just about anything you say. Brady is perfect for BB and why I’m sure he hasn’t shipped him off like Jaime Collins and Vince Fullfork.
I’d like to make a few things clear for the general readership as well in case anyone else is still reading:
–Cheating aside, the Patriots have put together the most impressive run in any of the major sports to me of my lifetime, maybe ever. The AFC East is awful but they are good vs. everyone and a 25-9 record is outrageous.
–I have nothing but respect for Belichick even though he may be an alien. He may be the GOAT (I haven’t studied coaches as I have QBs) but like anyone else he stunk in Cleveland so that has to count for something. The list of QBs and coaches to have chances with two teams and didn’t win the SB with both is amazing.
–I don’t think Brady is a bum. Just not GOAT and not even Top 5.
These may be the nicest, most truthful things I’ve ever heard you say (or seen you write) about Brady, Belichick, and the Patriots.
Also, your comparisons for McNabb/Marino, and Roethlisberger/Manning aren’t even relatively similar.
McNabb, although a very good QB, will have a hard time getting into the HOF. Marino is one of the greats of all time and already in the HOF.
Where your comparisons don’t make sense are with the other two. Big Ben and Peyton are both without a doubt going to be enshrined in Canton. I find your lack of respect for Roethlisberger as an all-time great QB very alarming. He may not be in the competition for GOAT, but he is without a doubt in the HOF, which makes him one of the best to ever live. McNabb isn’t in the same category.
Whether you agree with it or not, history has proven that QB’s more than any other position in football are judged by championships, clutch moments, and legacy. Again, I’m not saying that this is a fair assessment of every QB, but that’s the way history remembers them. Tom Brady looks very secure in all 3 areas.
That was kind of my point. If you use the % thing from above, you’ll see how misleading it can be when comparing Marino to McNabb. McNabb’s %s are higher.
I get how we argue QBs and how people see legacy. My aim to push back on the main fallacies that exist.
But I don’t think (and most others agree with me) that they are fallacies, unless they are taken in a vacuum with no outside consideration of other criteria. IMO, there has to be both quantitative and qualitative evidences to support the GOAT argument. BTW, I still don’t see McNabb-is-to-Marino being any kind of similar to Roethlisberger-is-to-Manning.
As for your arguments in the article, there is a truth to every one that can be found.
“Myth 1: He wins more, with less.”
*This statement may not be completely truthful; but what is undoubtedly accurate is that Tom Brady wins more than anyone else.
“Myth #2: Players hit the QB lottery playing with him.”
*Besides Gronk and Moss, Brady has played with very few stud athletes on offense. I do believe that players hit the football professional lottery (aka “work ethic”) playing with him. The one thing about Brady that is unmatched is his game preparation and practice schedule. I have no doubt that guys like Welker, Edelman, Amendola, Woodhead, and Branch learned how to practice with passion, desire, and professionalism from their time with Brady.
“Myth #3: Brady has nearly won Super Bowls in spite of his team.”
*Brady has never won a Super Bowl in a blowout. I think that (along with not being able to beat Eli and the Giants) is the biggest “flaw” in his Super Bowl dominance persona. But, he has still won, and with very different teams. Again, he has won 5 Super Bowls over a span of 15 seasons, and been in the AFC Championship game 11 of those seasons while winning 7 of them. This is not in spite of his team, but with very different team personnel and team members. The ability to adapt, inspire, and be a leader to different individual personality types over the years is a big compliment to his leadership and winning ability.
“Myth #4: Brady made Belichik and was the key to New England turning around from 5-11 in 2000 to winning 3 of 4 Super Bowls.”
*New England had never won prior to Brady and Belichick. Belichick had never won (as a head coach) prior to Brady. While Brady may not have made Belichick, you can’t say Belichick made Brady either. I think they are a symbiotic relationship of sorts. They needed each other. To me, they are the football equivalent of basktball’s Duncan/Popovich relationship. They have made each other great. Again, it goes back to work ethic and trust. They are both equally responsible for NE’s success.
“BTW, I still don’t see McNabb-is-to-Marino being any kind of similar to Roethlisberger-is-to-Manning.”
You: Brady has been to the Super Bowl 50% and the AFC Championship game 70%, etc etc….more than other elite QBs.”
Me: McNabb has been to the Super Bowl 8% and the Conference Championship 40%…more than Marino.
It’s just a bogus criteria proven to be so when you use the right information.
“It’s just a bogus criteria proven to be so when you use the right information.”
It’s not a bogus criteria if you include other relevant information. The fact that Brady (and his team) has won 64% of AFC Championship games and 71% of the Super Bowls he’s played in is very relevant information. Those are very high win % along with dominance in the regular seasons and playoffs. Taken by themselves, I am inclined to agree with you that AFC/NFC CG % is not really a valid argument. My point is that when combined with all the winning, it is relevant and very impressive
BTW, your numbers on McNabb and Marino are wrong. McNabb went to 5-13 NFC CG, while Marino went to 3-16 AFC CG. That’s only a 19% difference. And they both went to 1 Super Bowl, in which they both lost (interestingly, the winning QB in those Super Bowls were guys named Montana and Brady). So that is only a 2% difference between the two when including the # of years played.
“…what is undoubtedly accurate is that Tom Brady wins more than anyone else.”
This phrasing is exactly what I spent 2500 words above arguing against, another 2500 on Manning’s legacy article arguing against and probably another 2000 in the comments here arguing against. Players do not ‘win’ Super Bowls. I don’t know how many different ways I can explain it in addition to the 7,000 words I’ve written for REO.
“…what is undoubtedly accurate is that Charles Haley won twice as many SBs as LT and Reggie White combined.”
“…what is undoubtedly accurate is that Robert Horry won more than Michael Jordan.”
“…what is undoubtedly accurate is that Trent Dilfer won more than Dan Marino.”
All of your cunning examples have some merit, because I do see your point. But let’s get real. Charles Haley, Robert Horry, and Trent Dilfer have NEVER been included in any discussion of the GOAT even for their respective positions, not to mention for the GOAT of their entire sport. Brady, Jordan, and I’ll even include Marino for your sake are on totally different levels. There’s got to be some common sense involved. Again, taking # of wins, win %, statistics, leadership and inspiration ability, work ethic, etc. all combined, Brady has proven himself. That’s hard for a Montana guy to admit.
“The one thing about Brady that is unmatched is his game preparation and practice schedule. I have no doubt that guys like Welker, Edelman, Amendola, Woodhead, and Branch learned how to practice with passion, desire, and professionalism from their time with Brady.”
Um, no. QBs all over the league are just as prepared and just as passionate. In fact, those inside the NFL have always claimed Peyton Manning dealt more with game planning than Tom Brady will ever dream of. Manning really led the culture of QBs playing like doctoral students this generation.
“…This is not in spite of his team, but with very different team personnel and team members. The ability to adapt, inspire, and be a leader to different individual personality types over the years is a big compliment to his leadership and winning ability.”
Players that still produce Top 5 Defenses (#1 this year, just like 2003). If we are going to give QBs credit for leadership on defenses, we need to rank Phill Simms and Jim McMahon and Trent Dilfer higher. The defense also played quite well under Cassel and the first four games this year.
“In fact, those inside the NFL have always claimed Peyton Manning dealt more with game planning than Tom Brady will ever dream of. Manning really led the culture of QBs playing like doctoral students this generation.”
And there it is! Who do you know inside the NFL? Only a few players have ever played for both QB’s. And you know as well as I do that the Patriots keep everything hush-hush and on the D-L. Just check out their boring, San Antonio-like press conferences. I am not here to bash Peyton Manning. He is obviously a truly great QB, in the discussion for GOAT. I have nothing but respect for his game.
Also, you didn’t read what I put. I never said game planning. I said game preparation and practice schedule. Brady has proven his work ethic and game preparation. When the system works, you don’t have to game plan. But you still have to prepare and work hard. That was my point.
All I heard this year was how overrated the Pats Defense was this year. Everyone kept saying they never played a good QB.
You are lacking common sense.
“Players that still produce Top 5 Defenses (#1 this year, just like 2003). If we are going to give QBs credit for leadership on defenses, we need to rank Phill Simms and Jim McMahon and Trent Dilfer higher. The defense also played quite well under Cassel and the first four games this year.”
I have never denied this point. The Patriots defense this year in particular was nothing short of great. They held one of the highest scoring offenses in league history to 21 points in the Super Bowl. Very impressive. That still doesn’t take away from what the offense did under Brady’s leadership in the final 20 minutes, leading the biggest Super Bowl comeback of all-time at the age of 39. They also deserve loads of credit, b/c up until this point in history what they did had never been done. FYI, I think James White should’ve been the SB MVP. I think there are very few QB’s who would’ve won MVP over White’s performance, but Brady got the benefit of the doubt because of his name. But even he admitted White deserved it.
Hmm. Interesting article.
I’m not sure if Brady is the GOAT or not, but I do think having five rings as an elite QB(he IS Elite) makes him top five at least. Maybe I’m wrong on that, but I do think winning matters the most in the end and Brady certainly played well in many of those Super Bowls to get some credit. However, I actually have something to add to your argument against Brady. Despite the fact that Brady has played well in the Super Bowl games he’s played in, he’s still been mostly outplayed by his opposing QBs.
Jake Delhomme absolutely shredded the Patriots. John Kasay’s kick out of bounds helped Brady immensely and Vinitieri obviously came up clutch again. If Delhomme ever got the ball back, the Panthers would have been champions. Especially since in that game, whenever Brady was put under pressure by the defense, he was terrible while Delhomme made perfect passes in those same situations.
Eli Manning twice, obviously. But Brady fans like to bring up the Giants defense being elite as the reason but that’s only really true for the 2007 team. The 2011 Giants had a mediocre defense and Eli still outplayed Brady.
Russell Wilson also outplayed him, even with that interception. Because everyone knows that was a product of bad coaching.
And I won’t argue against anyone who says Matt Ryan was better. He did enough to win, but a combination of luck on Brady’s side and Ryan’s own defense failing him put a stop to that.
The only QBs he legitimately outplayed were Warner and McNabb. Five times he was the second best quarterback on the field. So if people want to call him the greatest QB of all time, they’ll have to acknowledge that he’s not the greatest QB performer in Super Bowl history either.
Rings don’t make you elite. Terry Bradshaw won four, and he was never considered elite. That outlook is the problem, what what I see. And, it is media driven by idiots like Skip Bayless and people who were anointing Montana back in the day.
Brady looked good last night, but our (I’m a Denver fan) special teams gave the game away (because Vance Joseph is a moron, and Elway is drafting bad players). His team has also been bailed out this year by the officials (against the Jets and Chargers) the other team’s kicker (against Tampa) and the safety who dropped an INT (against the Texans) near the end of the game.
Yes, also interesting is that after 4 games the Pats were dead last in scoring D and they were 2-2. I can’t envision an 8-8 team making the playoffs this year. But in the last five games they’ve given up 67 points, a ppg average (13.4) that would easily be first in the league right now. And low and behold they are now leading the division. Like magic. As is, the two extremes make them the 15th ranked D in terms of scoring against, which isn’t great but it’s not terrible either. Brady has never played with a D that ranked lower than 17th (compare to Rodgers, Brees, Manning, et al who have played with 20th and 25th and 30th ranked Ds on several occasions). Only twice was it 17th and those two years were two of NE’s worst in their great run. Usually his D is elite and that is a huge reason why they keep winning.
I realize there are saber metrics out there like DVOA but when it comes down to it, stopping the other team from scoring is what it is about and NE is often great and never bad.
I suppose a word can be said about how great the New England O had to be to keep them at 2-2 when the D was giving up 30+ PPG. But then I think that Garapolo threw for 500 yards and 4 TDs vs 0 Ints in six quarters last year and then I think it’s not that impressive. Very small sample size but like Cassell he turned it into millions of dollars.
One thing we need to realize is that Arizona missed the winning field goal against NE. Another is that Miami was sooo horrible at that time. They started 1-4. Houston…Brissett never threw the ball! Against Buffalo was telling to me. Brady had to be there. The man would have went undefeated if not for fumbles against Seattle. Simply amazing at his,age
Jay, I think that Gowdy was talking about this season, but you are right that the Cardinals should have beat the Pats last year in Week 1. Also, Miami and Houston went up there and choked in Weeks 2 and 3.
I only have one or two things to add, the article points out all that I have stated and much more. I also think that Brady’s true interest in “playing until he is 50” is because if he did, BB would likely have retired(65 now). I think if he retired now that his legacy would be tarnished with Mark Sanchez or Matt Leinart or Mike Tirico taking them to the playoffs under BB.
I am a Michigan fan and remember him well at U 0f M. He couldn’t start there over super recruit Drew Henson. Also, how can somebody in ANY sport be considered the best if they cannot simply do all the physical things needed to be “the best”. For example, he has NEVER been able to throw the deep out (like an Elway, Favre or Marino), can’t throw the deep in anymore at all. Imagine saying Michael Jordan was the best(just an example) but couldn’t hit the 3 or played bad defense. Seems that the best at ANYTHING has to be extremely well rounded (like a 5 tool baseball guy-Trout).
Lastly, great points on Steve Young…I really miss Jaws on PTI…..go get another bottle of Just For Men, Steve!
Good point. Deep down, Brady knows that he is a product of Belichick and Ernie Adams’ cheating system, the officials, and other factors (like one of the weak divisions in the NFL the past 16 years).
Anybody ever remember a great Brady throw? Nope. He’s the best bubble screen, quick slant thrower in the game. He couldn’t throw deep and people wanna talk about moss. The greatest deep ball receiver ever. Old ass randall cunningham got buckets with moss. Brady has never had to go thru some shit. He always has a defense. Belichek just needs a top 15 qb to win superbowls. Phillip rivers….andy dalton…old Jay cutler could do Brady’s job. Make 5 yard throws don’t turn it over. He’s Alex smith in a pats jersey. # Rodgers goat…. nobody can make his throws. Ask the cowboys ask the cards.
Nobody defends the Pats properly. Teams play 10 yards off the ball, and the Pats take the short pass all day. Your strategy should be about pressuring the receivers and RB’s more than Brady. Hit those guys at the LOS, and bring your pass rush right at Tom, not around him where he can step up.
Funny fan based biased arguments. Brady has been judged by his peers to be the GOAT. Your arguments would be laughable to them.
This is one of the best most informed articles on football I’ve ever read and it’s SPOT ON!!!
Absolutely the worst and most ignorant article of all time. So since you feel so strong about stating your ignorant opinion, let me state mine. First, you can pick apart anyone’s achievements if you want to. Every single legend has things in their career that can be brought up to tarnish there greatness. I guarantee you do not do this towards your favorites.
Secondly, winning is the end all say all. Wilt Chamberlain averaged outrageous stats that can never be duplicated but very few consider him the goat. Goats win and win consistently and often.
Third, goats are judged by their peers. Why is that every current or retired player considers Tom Brady the GOAT??? Why would guys that battled him and hated him call him the GOAT?? I guess you as a little pastor know better??? That is the biggest joke of all.
Winning is a team accomplishment. Brady wins because Belichick has the Patriots well-coached as a TEAM. They rarely make mistakes, and they play complimentary football.
Guys like Brady and Michael Jordan have won a lot of titles, but it’s because of the team and the coaching, not just because of them. In 1994, the Bulls won 55 games without MJ (and, in 08, the Pats won 11 games without Brady). Those guys don’t make their teammates better.
Wilt didn’t win the rings these guys did, but as an individual player, he is much better than either of those guys. And, he was a way better athlete than MJ (ESPN’s list of the greatest athletes of the 20th century is a joke).
Wilt played in a tough era against the multiple HOFer Celtics and Bill Russell. Brady and Jordan have won titles in watered down eras and with a lot of assistance by the officials.
Lol oh look tomorrow Brady is in the Superbowl again and is considered hands down by the guys who actually played against him as the GOAT!!!! But I guess so no name pastor knows more then the guys he has played against for the last 15 years. Typical pastor lmao and smdh
Jason,
Since you resort to name-calling and belittling another human just because you disagree about something in sports, let me help you out.
First, if you are going to call someone ignorant, ask a friend to edit your writing before posting. For example, you should have written “than” other than the word “then” in your comment above.
Using words like “no name pastor” and “typical pastor” and your hyperbolic “absolutely the worst and most ignorant article of all time,” makes your opinion about the issue less valid, not more. Stick to the point, present your reasoning, and engage with civility.
I am guessing you are angry about something in your life that is not related to sports, which causes you to irrationally lash out against someone with whom you disagree. There is so much injustice and true problems in the world about which we should be angry, but attacking a pastor due to his opinion on a professional football player is not one of them.
Absolutely the worst and most ignorant article of all time. So since you feel so strong about stating your ignorant opinion, let me state mine. First, you can pick apart anyone’s achievements if you want to. Every single legend has things in their career that can be brought up to tarnish there greatness. I guarantee you do not do this towards your favorites.
Secondly, winning is the end all say all. Wilt Chamberlain averaged outrageous stats that can never be duplicated but very few consider him the goat. Goats win and win consistently and often.
Third, goats are judged by their peers. Why is that every current or retired player considers Tom Brady the GOAT??? Why would guys that battled him and hated him call him the GOAT?? I guess you as a little pastor know better??? That is the biggest joke of all.
Jason, thank you for reading and commenting. A few things:
1. I’m not sure what Gowdy being a pastor has to do with any of his arguments in the article. If you have an issue with his arguments, address those. Attacking his profession/ministry is uncalled for.
2. I must have missed the survey where “every current or retired player” said that Tom Brady is the GOAT. Do you have a link to that study/survey? I would be interested in seeing their findings.
Phil, there are several players and ex-players who think that Brady is the GOAT:
https://www.patspulpit.com/2018/2/1/16958634/sorry-broncos-fans-terrell-davis-thinks-tom-brady-is-the-greatest-quarterback-in-nfl-history
However, I take that with a grain of salt. TD works for the NFL Network, and they are probably told by the league to praise Brady at every turn.
I’m sure there are. That’s not what Jason claimed. He said “every.” Big difference.
Who hasn’t referred to him as the goat? Rogers has, Aikman has, Bradshaw has, Young has. Only the two that wish they were haven’t: Manning and Montana. Neither has much of an argument any more. Brady has done everything manning has statistically and everything Montana has winning wise. It’s really not even a debate.
And yet somehow we are debating it. Many former players have also accused the Patriots of cheating so I’m not going to drink the koolaide of popular opinion.
I will quote a certain NFL player about this subject:
“I know myself as a player. I’m really a product of what I’ve been around, who I was coached by, what I played against, in the era I played in. I really believe if a lot of people were in my shoes they could accomplish the same kinds of things. So I’ve been very fortunate.”
But, sorry Gowdy, it seems no one besides this nameless nobody has something barely near your opinion inside NFL.
You actually have a lot of good points. But the problem is Cassel’s number is way worse than Brady’s, both 07 and 09. 08 patriots has an excellent roster, but it’s not the same for them since 09. 08 patriots had a great enviroment for qb to succeed. But it’s not always that way with patriots. And every quarterback is somewhat dependent on the enviroment and supporting cast, like Aaron Rodgers and Peyton Manning. Peyton Manning always had a good offense supporting cast. Aaron Rodgers performed better when he has great weapons and struggled when Jordy Nelson was injuried.
If the logic of yours were used in a fair way, the argument should be that 07 patriots had an excellent enviroment for quarterback to succeed and it made the quarterback look better than they actually are.( so “look better” at a record of 16-0, his true skill level is still pretty good at maybe 13-3?) (The 3-1 in 16 season is actually because Jimmy G is just that good. I don’t think they have an excellent roster,especially on the defense side.)
Yes, Cassel had an outlier year in kc. But 08 patriots had an outlier roster for patriots, too.
For an orgnization, you may have a great roster here and there(like the 13-14 seahawks and 17-18 eagles) but constant excellence needs a great quarterback to be the driving force.
Or a great coach (like Lombardi and Belichick). They were/are the driving forces for the 60’s Pack and today’s Pats, not the QB’s. Brady and Starr would be ringless without them.
Ok deflate gate, 0 proof + 0 proof that they inflated the balls bellow the legal limit and they didn’t just conform to the natural gas law, that aside, all cold weather QB’s deflate and inflate the balls, its common practice in fact, name me a cold weather team i can name you a QB that defended Brady, the reason you deflate the ball is simple, because it becomes hard to grip, this allows you to be able to grip the ball again but in doing this you sacrifice the distance you can throw the ball. A good test for this is to get a soccer ball half inflate it and kick it, then inflate it to the correct psi and kick it, then over inflate the ball and kick it, the over inflated ball will travel further but hurt your food in the process, the deflated ball will be harder to kick and not go as far, interestingly Rodgers came out and said he overinflated his balls, why? because they go further and he has large hands enabling him to grip an over inflated hard ball.
So now i have establish there is no gain from deflating the ball and why they do it in cold weather, outdoor stadiums, you can now under stand my next comment, deflate gate was nothing to do with inflating or deflating the ball in fact the season before 3 teams had been caught doing the same thing with no punishment, no loss of draft pick, no 4 week suspension, no fine 100,000 dollar fine, in fact prior to Brady no equipment violation had ever received a punishment more than a fine. Deflate gate was the league showing they were not racist by punishing the highest profile white player, a player they believed would retire soon after, Brady rightful challenged the leagues authority to arbitrarily apply any penalty they saw fit, Deflate gate became the players right to a fair penalisation based on facts vs the Leagues right to punish its employees as they see fit, with no to little proof, in essence Brady challenged Rodger Goodells power to arbitrarily penalise players. This is why you saw players like Sherman Defend Brady.
Now i could go on how Castles year actually shows how good Brady actually is, that he took that roaster to 18 – 1 and castle with the same roster could only take that team to 10 – 6, i could say that the teams that played the pats that year had more injuries and were in worse positions to beat them , but that some of those teams did beat them, i could point out that Brady Evolves every year and thats the reason the other top 6 QB’s become less effective is because players can now study tape on QB’s and work out there Tells, and Brady works every year to eliminate them and that with castle that had to keep the exact same plays and not evolve, but you can make stats look how you want its like the news you can screw facts to your point of view.
End of the day players are bigger, faster and stronger now (on average) then they ever were in steroid days of the steelers and 49’ers, that Brady has had a cast of solid players, but the other people in the GOAT conversation had teams filled with Hall of fame players on both sides of the ball, that when you throw to 1 guy your whole career thats a shit load easier than having to start again every 2 years.
But at the end of the day your a Brady hatter and nothing i say will convince you, your hates irrational, the facts, the stats, the records, the championships all support Bradys claim to Greatness, your argument is made from a bias, from an agenda, to you you hang to that belief and nothing anyone else tells you will convince you that your wrong, to you the sky is green and even though everyone tells you that in fact its blue, your still going to see green.
Comparing 08 Cassel to 07 Brady isn’t fair. Brady was an established QB, and Cassel hadn’t started a game at the position since High School.
In addition, the 07 Pats were a better team. The 08 Pats lost Asante Samuel and Donte’ Stallworth to FA, and they lost Tedy Bruschi and Rodney Harrison to injury. The 07 Pats were running up the score every week because of a spygate hissyfit, and they played in a weaker division than the 08 Pats (three teams finished with winning records in the East in 08, only one in 07).
And, you mentioned Cassel, but what about 2016 when Garoppolo and Brissett combined to go 3-1?
Great article! Several people mentioned 2008 Pats and 2011 Colts. I’m a mathematician, so I’d like to expand on those examples from a statistics perspective.
Patrick Pass and Roman Phifer, who you’ve probably never heard of but each won 3 SBs, are great examples of the danger of judging someone based on their team’s record. The gold standard for evaluating the contribution of one specific component to the performance of a complex system is a randomized controlled trial. This kind of thing is rarely possible in the NFL, but the 2008 Pats and 2011 Colts provide as close as you can get to one. Each team had been dominating its (weak) division, making the playoffs, and averaging about 12 wins per season since Brady and Manning started. When the Pats lost Brady, their 11-5 record was about 1 win below their average for them for the era. When the Colts lost Manning, their 2-14 record was 10 wins below their average for them for the era.
Manning certainly does not contribute 10 times as much to his teams winning, but the direction of the comparison is clear.
Great point! Thanks for mentioning it. I’ve said it before, and even above in the article, but 11 wins gets you into the playoffs 99.9% of the time in the twelve team NFL playoff bracket. It got you in with only one exception when it was a ten-team bracket (16 game era). But people say, “They missed the playoffs!” The very Patriots have made the playoffs with 10 and 11 wins multiple times this century. Just bad luck. I’d give $100 to see how they’d have done in the playoffs. Because that was the year Pittsburgh won with a similar record and even though Pittsburgh beat the Pats pretty good in the RS that year, NE has proven that they can lose to Pitt in the regular season and then come back and whip them in the playoffs.
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AGREE 100%
BILL BELICHICK COULD HAVE HAD SAME SUCCESS WITHOUT BRADY. HIS COACHING AND TEAM BUILDING SKILLS ARE UNMATCHED. THERE ARE A DOZEN QUARTERBACKS IN THE NFL WHO COULD OF DONE THE SAME. BE HONEST. WOULD WE BE HAVING THIS CONVERSATION IF BRADY HAD PLAYED FOR THE CLEVELAND BROWNS THE LAST 15 YEARS? NO WAY. I DON’T LIKE BELICHECK, BUT CAN’T ARGUE HE’S THE BEST COACH IN THE LAST 50 YEARS. BRADY HAS NEXT TO ZERO MOBILITY COMPARED TO TODAY’S MODERN QUARTERBACKS. WITHOUT THE TEAM AROUND HIM, HE’S GOOD AT BEST. I’M SURE PATRIOTS FANS LOVE HIM, AND THEY SHOULD. BUT OPEN YOUR MINDS AND THINK. BROWNS? HE’D OF NEVER SURVIVED.
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Whoops. No Pats, no Belichick, no problem. 7 rings. Just dropping in from the future to say how wrong you were. You were wrong when you wrote the article, but WOW, are you wrong now!
No, I’m still right. I don’t think I ever said he could only win in NE, just that it gave him a major advantage. He still had a great set up in Tampa Bay. Consider this:
Tampa Bay Defense:
8th in points per game
6th in yards per game
5th in First Downs Given up
4th in forcing turnovers
4th in sacks
6th in yards per play
6th in yards per drive
6th in points per drive
Chris Godwin (1300 receiving yards in 2019 with Winston at QB)
Mike Evans (1500 receiving yards in 2018 with Winston and Fitzpatrick at QB)
Antonio Brown (1800 yards receiving in 2015 with Roethlisberger, Landry and Vick at QB)
Leonard Fournette (73 rushing yards per game and 134 receptions in three years in Jax)
Everyone – MAN TOM BRADY TOOK A BUNCH OF SCRUBS TO THE SUPER BOWL.
Also he had a playoff game where he threw 3 picks in a half and still won (He’s 3-1 in playoff games where he throws three picks while the rest of the league is 5-32 in his era). He had another game where he had to lead three TD drives a whopping 63 cumulative yards and managed to win despite completing only 17 passes for 180-something yards. Compare that to Rodgers whose TD drives in his loss were 225 yards. Their not playing with the same circumstances.
His D forced both Brees and Mahomes into their worst playoff games ever and yet somehow he’s still the story. In the Super Bowl he did a bunch of nothing and got a bunch of penalty help (I guess they had to call all of them, just as they did at the end of the 2018-19 Saints/Rams NFC Championship, right?)
QBs don’t win Super Bowls.
Hi, Gowdy, I am back again to see if there were any comments after he won in Tampa. And, boy are they.
It’s sad that a lot of people are saying that he’s the GOAT athlete (not just QB, but athlete) just because he has seven rings. It is another example of how the QB position is over-valued to some degree. It is important, but not as important as the TEAM you play on (and the organization you play for. Jerry Krause used to say that organizations win championships, and he is right to a large degree).
Brady started out with a great organization for 20 years, and then he went to a team that was loaded with talent. We never saw him have to carry a bad Cleveland team or a bad Jacksonville team up from the mire (he isn’t good enough to do that, anyway). People will say that the Pats were 5-11 the year before he took over. That is true, but they added a lot of new players in 2001 in the draft and FA (like Seymour, Bryan Cox, Vrabel, Antowain Smith, Mike Compton, Matt Light, etc…), and they had a weaker schedule than the year before.
Fans ignore the facts about Brady, and just see the rings. That is foolish. This is the luckiest athlete ever, not the best.
There is a site on You Tube (called Greatest Games Never Played). One of the hosts said that Brady would have led the Rams to SB’s if they draft him in 2000 (they had the pick before Brady was drafted in the sixth round by NE). I don’t think so. If the Rams win in 2001, Kurt Warner isn’t leaving there. Here is the show if you want to check it out:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T4sZJPea5_s
Thanks! Very nice comment.
Gowdy, I don’t know if you watch Fearless with Jason Whitlock, but he recently had Warren Sapp, Favre, and Urlacher on his show:
https://rumble.com/v42tnh2-the-only-brady-belichick-debate-you-need-to-watch.html
On this show, Sapp said that his 2002 Bucs needed five HOFers to win, but the 2020 Bucs just needed one (Brady). What about Gronk and AB? Gronk should get in, and AB has a good case with seven Pro Bowls and being on the All-2010’s team.
And Mike Evans for sure. That guy has had monster numbers with any QB they put back there. I don’t know if Godwin could make it but he’s an outstanding receiver as well (86 catches, 1333 yards and 9 TDs the year BEFORE Brady arrived!)
Either way it’s not a great way to look at it as football is such a team game. The 2020 Bucs had one of the most amazing collection of offensive weapons ever assembled, with those guys we mentioned above plus Fournette and the defense was Top 6-8 in essentially any stat or metric that matters. Arians got to the NFC Championship with Arizona and Palmer at QB playing out of his mind. It was a great group effort and they may have even benefitted from no crowd noise in the playoffs.
I am a Bronco fan, and I have been looking at content by some guys from Denver Broncos Mile High View. One of them goes by the name of Bubbleman, who is a Brady lover:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XujbU9_cpDg&t=542s
I agree with him that Mahomes is overrated, but this guy is obsessed with Brady. He said that Brady played tougher competition than Mahomes. That is true somewhat, but he doesn’t seem to see that Brady played in a weak division for most of his career, and that he benefited from Spygate.